[Talkrc] Re: [Tcrcm-announcements] Helicopter

[Fred Stong]

Rob,
Most fixed wing planes are flying at some distance and there is time for 
someone to react, unlike helis that usually are very close by.  I have been 
hit by a 40 size plane while standing in the pits and had to go get my arm 
triaged at the hospital.  Even so, I still think that helis are less safe. 
And, I spent a lot of time yesterday trying to suggest a way to make a more 
suitable place for helis to fly at the grass field.  I am not opposed to 
them at the field.  I just don't want my attention torn between flying my 
plane and keeping an eye on the heli too.  Off to the side, the problem goes 
away for both the heli flier and the fixed wing flier.  It seems to me to be 
a practical solution for everyone -- maybe not you though?????  But, read 
what I said, not what you are suggesting I said.  And, I never voted to 
oppose helis at the field, even if I am OLD.
Fred
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Rob Opgenorth" <rob.opgenorth at tcrcm.org>
To: "List Server For Radio Controlled Aircraft Interests in the Pacific 
Northwest" <talkrc at sgster.dyndns.org>
Cc: "Fred Stong" <Fstongsr at charter.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2008 9:50 AM
Subject: [Talkrc] Re: [Tcrcm-announcements] Helicopter


> Helicopters are no  more dangerous than airplanes.
>
> If a .40 size airplane runs into you with it's rigid knife like propeller 
> is likely going to do more damage than a heli.
>
> Helicopters blades are hinged, blunt, relatively fragile and only turning 
> 1500 - 2000 rpm.  A typical airplane has a sharp rigid prop turning 
> 10,000 - 20,000 rpm!
>
> Speed wise helicopters are much slower than airplanes and a typical heli 
> weighs 6 - 8 lbs, most of my airplanes are  two to three times that!
>
> The very few but very vocal (and very old) anti-helicopter faction of our 
> club have tried to ban helicopters from the club before and lost.  I'm 
> sure you would like to ban 3D airplane flying from the field as well.
>
> Helicopters are becoming a big part of rc flying because they are great 
> fun!
>
> There is a reason the MAA club has three times the membership of TCRCM, 
> its because members of our club are driving people out!  I'm sick of it! 
> If we don't get the membership up we are going to lose the field.  We 
> cannot afford to alienate any more people than we have already.
>
> Rob Opgenorth
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Fred Stong" <Fstongsr at charter.net>
> To: "Tri-City Radio Control Modelers Announcements Mail List" 
> <tcrcm-announcements at sgster.dyndns.org>; <Loren.Mack at Sun.COM>
> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:50 AM
> Subject: Re: [Tcrcm-announcements] Helicopter
>
>
>> All,
>> Personally, I dunno if this can work.  What I dislike most about 
>> helicopters doing aerobatics or any activities over the runway close to 
>> the pilot stands is the possibility of loss of control, orientation, or 
>> whatever resulting in the injury or death of one of the other persons on 
>> the flight line.  That person, likely flying a fixed wing plane, would 
>> undoubtedly be focused on flying his plane and would find it difficult to 
>> be on the lookout for problems with the helicopter.  He might have no 
>> chance or time to avoid being hit.  Another thing, I have found a 4 inch 
>> end piece of a helicopter blade with its lead leading edge imbedded in 
>> the turf at the far east end of the runway.  Those things have tremendous 
>> energy, and if a blade fails or the helicopter crashes, the blades can 
>> become dangerous.  For these main reasons, I feel the helicopters should 
>> fly away from the path normally used by fixed wing aircraft.  The only 
>> areas open would be to the southeast or southwest of the existing runway. 
>> Alternatively, if a helicopter flies over the runway, I feel that fixed 
>> wing aircraft should stand down.  Why would it not be possible for the 
>> helicopters to fly out to the southeast from the proposed helipad and 
>> stay away from the fixed wing normal flight area? Aside from the desire 
>> to increase club membership, what is the urgent desire to inclusively 
>> have helicopter activities at the field?
>>
>> Sorry if this upsets anyone, but having a helicopter flipping around on 
>> the runway while I'm trying to fly my fixed wing plane is not pleasant to 
>> contemplate.
>>
>> ----- Original Message ----- 
>> From: "Loren Mack" <Loren.Mack at Sun.COM>
>> To: "'Gordon Anderson'" <GAA at owt.com>
>> Cc: <tcrcm-announcements at tcrcm.org>
>> Sent: Friday, January 11, 2008 10:11 AM
>> Subject: RE: [Tcrcm-announcements] Helicopter
>>
>>
>>> Gordon,
>>>
>>> That's a really good point.  I can see how that's a main flaw with the
>>> ideas.  There's not really any reliable way to let everyone on the 
>>> flight
>>> line know what's going on.  I know that I certainly wouldn't hear 
>>> someone
>>> four pads away if there were folks between us.  Especially since *all* 
>>> of my
>>> focus is on not crashing.
>>>
>>> What about a "relay" system?
>>>
>>> Let's say there's 7 guys on the line, all flying, 3 helis and 4 planes, 
>>> and
>>> laid out like this:
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^FENCE LINE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>>
>>> =======================================================
>>> ---------------R-U-N-W-A-Y-------S-T-R-I-P-------------
>>> ---------------R-U-N-W-A-Y-------S-T-R-I-P-------------
>>> =======================================================
>>>
>>>     H1     P2     P3     H4     P5     H6     P7
>>>
>>> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^FENCE LINE^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>> The Heli-guy at position "H4" wants to land.  He shouts out "LANDING!!".
>>> Guys flanking him at "P3" and "P5" repeat his announcement.
>>> Guys flanking them repeat the announcement again, sending the message 
>>> both
>>> ways along the flight line, until H1 and P7 have repeated the 
>>> announcement.
>>>
>>> At this point everyone along the flight line knows *someone* is landing.
>>> Whomever is the one landing knows it's them, and so everyone else knows 
>>> to
>>> leave the path clear.
>>>
>>> Same layout, and another example:
>>>
>>> P5 announces "Hovering" as he's going to do some torque rolls along the
>>> runway, low altitude.  At the same time H1 announces "Hovering" as he's
>>> wanting to do some 3D over the runway.  The announcement is echoed along 
>>> the
>>> pilot's line.  Each person who echoed the announcement now knows someone
>>> else will be doing 3D along the runway.
>>>
>>> Both P5 and H1 now have right-of-way, and know they're clear, however 
>>> they
>>> may not realize there were 2 announcements.  Each pilot must know to 
>>> check
>>> the flight line and see what else is happening along it when they're 
>>> doing
>>> their maneuvers (this is the potential breakdown, and would probably 
>>> only
>>> happen when two guys make the same announcement at the exact same time, 
>>> and
>>> possibly only when planes are involved in a harrier, or walking torque 
>>> roll
>>> (very low probability).
>>>
>>> Same layout, last example:
>>>
>>> H1 announces "Hovering", and the announcement is relayed.  P7 now runs 
>>> out
>>> of fuel at the out past the left-end of the runway, and announces "Dead
>>> Stick".  It's imperative that the announcement reaches H1 before P7 must
>>> occupy his airspace.  Again, very low probability, but a possible issue
>>>
>>> So to describe the format:
>>>
>>> 1.  Any pilot that needs runway airspace (on the runway, within 100' at
>>> either end, and up to 80' above, or TBD) must announce.
>>>
>>> 2.  Any announcement must be relayed, and every pilot must "echo" the
>>> announcement.
>>>
>>> 3.  Only when the pilot has heard an echo of their announcement are they
>>> allowed to commence with their maneuver, and if no echo is heard they 
>>> must
>>> repeat until echoed, or until overridden.
>>>
>>> 4.  Order of priority for announcements:
>>> - Dead Stick - ultimate priority
>>> - Landing - overrides Hovering, Takeoff, Coming Out
>>> - Hovering - overrides Takeoff, Coming Out
>>> - Takeoff - overrides Coming Out only
>>> - Coming Out - no override, and must wait until no announcements are
>>> in effect.
>>>
>>> 5.  Pilots are responsible for discerning the active flight pattern and
>>> space used before "Coming Out".
>>>
>>> GAH!  What I thought would be a short eMail turned out to be a book.
>>> Apologies...
>>>
>>> For those of you who've waded through this, I wonder what thoughts you 
>>> might
>>> have?
>>>
>>> Loren Mack
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Gordon Anderson [mailto:GAA at owt.com]
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 10:13 PM
>>> To: Loren.Mack at Sun.COM
>>> Subject: RE: [Tcrcm-announcements] Helicopter
>>>
>>> Loren,
>>>
>>> I think its great to have this discussion. This has always been a hot 
>>> topic.
>>>
>>> A number of your points depend on the ability of the pilots to 
>>> communicate
>>> on
>>> the flight line. For example, calling out landing etc. This has always 
>>> been
>>> a
>>> problem because you just can't hear, even with a spotter helping each 
>>> pilot
>>> you
>>> can't hear because of the aircraft noise. This problem is aggravated by
>>> aircraft
>>> close to the flight line due to increased noise. I think if we could 
>>> solve
>>> the
>>> communications problems and pilots would all corporate your ideas could 
>>> be
>>> made
>>> to work. I would like to hear ideas on how we could enable reliable
>>> communications on the flight line. The big issue for the fixed wing guys 
>>> (at
>>> least this one) is I need to make sure its safe to land. After I'm up in 
>>> the
>>> air
>>> I will be there for 10 mins or so unless something bad happen and I need 
>>> to
>>> land. So making it easy to announce "landing" and being sure the field 
>>> will
>>> clear is what I really need.
>>>
>>> --Gordon
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: tcrcm-announcements-bounces at sgster.dyndns.org
>>> [mailto:tcrcm-announcements-bounces at sgster.dyndns.org] On Behalf Of 
>>> Loren
>>> Mack
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 7:06 PM
>>> To: douglarson01 at charter.net
>>> Cc: tcrcm-announcements at tcrcm.org
>>> Subject: RE: [Tcrcm-announcements] Helicopter
>>>
>>> Doug -
>>>
>>> Thanks for the ppt.  I took a look and decided to reply to you and the 
>>> TCRCM
>>> alias - possibly to start some discussion, so here are some thoughts:
>>>
>>> Seems like a good idea for one or two heli pilots, but more would cause 
>>> a
>>> problem.  I wonder if we could create two or three heli stations? 
>>> Possibly
>>> that
>>> shared a larger pad?  Perhaps setup zone markers on the ground to help 
>>> keep
>>> things separate (don't know if this is possible)?
>>>
>>> I'm not certain every heli pilot would be comfortable following the 
>>> plane
>>> patterns exactly while flying non-3D.  Personally I'm uncomfortable if 
>>> my
>>> heli's
>>> either too high, or too far out (where it's easy to lose depth 
>>> perception on
>>> tail position).  I wonder if there's some compromise where heli's could
>>> maintain
>>> a tighter pattern that would still be out of the way of planes?
>>>
>>> I think at some point we'll need a more structured level of coordination
>>> among
>>> mixed pilots.  For example:
>>>
>>> 1.  Helicopter pilots shouldn't flank each other.  At least one pad 
>>> where
>>> the
>>> pilot typically stands between them as separation.  This can be occupied 
>>> by
>>> a
>>> fixed-wing pilot, or empty, and would ensure adequate runway 
>>> hover-space.
>>>
>>> 2.  With mixed pilots on the line, plane pilots *and* heli pilots call 
>>> out
>>> landings, take-offs, 3D (harriers, torque-rolls, and heli-3D) and touch 
>>> & go
>>> maneuvers.
>>>
>>> 3.  Heli's are allowed hover time over the runway.  During this period
>>> planes
>>> maintain a minimum altitude (TBD).
>>>
>>> 4.  Anytime a plane will be near the runway (see maneuvers from point 
>>> #2)
>>> heli's
>>> maintain a minimum altitude (TBD).
>>>
>>> 5.  Fixed wings always have right-of-way.
>>>
>>> 6.  Heli runway hover time should be restricted to less than 2 minutes 
>>> per
>>> flight.  During these times planes avoid low runway passes and touch & 
>>> go
>>> maneuvers (longer hover times would be restricted to the heli-pad zones, 
>>> so
>>> someone wanting *just* to practice 3D would do so there, and not on the
>>> runway
>>> as a general rule).
>>>
>>> 7.  Planes are allowed 5-10 touch & gos per tank/flight/battery.
>>>
>>> These are *only* ideas for discussion, not requests or edicts.  I'd 
>>> welcome
>>> comments, alternatives, or feedback from anyone so inclined - no offense
>>> will be
>>> taken  :-)
>>>
>>> Loren Mack
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: tcrcm-announcements-bounces at sgster.dyndns.org
>>> [mailto:tcrcm-announcements-bounces at sgster.dyndns.org] On Behalf Of
>>> douglarson01 at charter.net
>>> Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:46 PM
>>> To: tcrcm-announcements at tcrcm.org
>>> Subject: [Tcrcm-announcements] Helicopter
>>>
>>> Attached is a power point file made up some time ago.  The ideas 
>>> proposed
>>> are
>>> worth further development I believe.
>>>
>>> Doug Larson
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>> Tcrcm-announcements at sgster.dyndns.org
>>> http://sgster.dyndns.org/mailman/listinfo/tcrcm-announcements
>>>
>>>
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>>
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